A conversation with Croatian performance artist Josipa Bubaš and poet/fiction writer Neva Lukić, recorded via Skype in April 2020, at the very start of the Covid19 lockdowns.
The interview took place while I was taking part in Neva and Josipa’s workshop ‘Goosbumps’ which was originally meant to happen offline in Croatia but due to Covid restrictions had to find an alternative way of operating and that alternative was, of course, the zoom.
As we speak of this workshop, we reflect on the transition from the real to the digital and wonder if we are witnessing the birth of a new era. What would be gained and what lost if art and our lives would indeed transition to the digital space, and is there even a way to stop this from happening?
We entertain the idea of lockdowns without Facebook, Instagram, zoom, etc. and question what would Corona look like without technology?
[Recorded 19 April, 2020 via Skype call from Sydney to Zagreb]
Music: Trevor Brown, sounds of a Zagreb apartment
TRANSCRIPT
Ira Ferris: How long have you been in self isolation for?
Neva Lukić: I haven't been in self isolation in a sense of not being allowed to leave home at all for two weeks, Josipa will be able to speak about that. But I have been in the regular social isolation for about a month, I think. I'm not sure exactly.
Ira Ferris: And you, Josipa?
Josipa Bubaš: I think it's been three weeks now, in this system of regulated movement. But I have also been in self isolation (the quarantine) for two weeks, not able to go to buy groceries and not able to go out at all. This was because I came from Turkey. First when we've arrived, they didn't put us in the quarantine because Turkey was considered safe at the time. But then it appeared that many people from the flight had Corona so they called us a week after we returned to stay home for two weeks. I was quite OK with this because I had feared that I might be infected and potentially harm somebody, and since I also have a mother who is sick and everything, I was afraid for damaging her heath. But then, of course, it was hard to be at home all the time and in this state of thinking: am I carrying this sickness? And also, at one point I got a small temperature so I was going through different kinds of states. But all in all, it was not that terrible. I found a way to cope and I had a lot of time for myself, to read and listen to some lectures that I missed. So, it was not that hard. But yes, I was in between two thinking states – is it all just a global paranoia or is it real? But then when I faced the possibility that maybe I could harm somebody else, I didn't feel good about it at all. So, yes I switched between different states of mind and different emotional states, of course.
Ira Ferris: And how have you been feeling physically throughout this period of needing to stay at home and not moving as much as you are used to? Are you experiencing any differences in your physicality as a consequence of this?
Josipa Bubaš: At first, I was mentally preparing myself for this, and this kind of mental condition lasted for some time because I did a lot of meditation and I exercised, so I switched to this other way of working on myself and on my body. But then at some point, since I could not leave the house at all, I felt really dizzy. One day I experienced a real physical crisis, because there was too much energy and I could not express it physically, by walking or something else. And I was also staring at the screen, all the time. And this really affected me more than anything, because I'm not used to watch and write on my computer all the time, and I think that this concentration of staring at the screen did something to my head. I was feeling sick, literally sick. Not psychologically but physically.
Ira Ferris: Neva, did you have similar experiences or how would you describe physical sensations of staying at home?
Neva Lukić: This Corona context is a little bit different for me. For me, it's more mental because my life changed. I'm used to travel quite a lot because I'm connected to Holland and have a partner in Belgrade. Also, my apartment in Zagreb is currently in renovation so I got stuck at my parent's place, which is nice because I like my parents, but still I'm not used to living with them. And I never lived in the house where my parents are now. So, at first, I was really angry that I cannot move, because I wanted to be in Belgrade but I couldn't go because they closed the borders. First two days, I was really angry but then I made peace with it. And actually, here where my parents live is really nice because it's below the hill in Zagreb so they have a little courtyard and there is a lot of green. Because I have never lived here because they moved here after I left the house, I'm not used to living in a place which has a garden. And in this Corona times, it's actually the perfect place to be isolated in because you are on the hill and you are in the green. So, I actually started rope-jumping in the courtyard for the physical health. Before they put up this hard quarantine, I went mountain climbing and I was out all the time, because I really don't like to be at home. So, I'm not used to this. But I think that the most important thing here is that we are not completely prohibited from going out; you can go out to the park and exercise. So, I cannot say that this is so difficult. And also, I continued the renovation of my apartment, that is still possible. I feel more affected because of some of my projects which will not happen and which I will not be paid for. And I feel more affected by the fact that the borders are closed. So, it is not so much about my body, even if I would like to move more. Because I am still exercising a bit at home and I'm always trying to have at least half an hour of a walk, or even two hours depending on a day. And the weather is very beautiful, which is really important.
Ira Ferris: Taking on from there and borrowing from an artwork of Croatian artist Petra Mrša, I'd like to ask you a question from her questionnaire. And the question is: If you could describe movement of your body in one physical activity you have done today?
Josipa Bubaš: Today I went running. I went to a park. I didn't run for quite a long while, for several years because I had a knee injury and now I started running again and it was really good. It was really, really good.
Ira Ferris: What is your favorite physical activity normally?
Josipa Bubaš: Well, I like being in the studio, with other people or by myself, and I really enjoy doing improvisation and experimenting. That's my favorite. But I like running also and I do yoga. Different things through different periods. But yes, what I like the most is this free flow of improvisation.
Ira Ferris: In dance? Is dance your practice?
Josipa Bubaš: Not so much dance but something between dance and physical theatre. I use movement a lot but not in very choreographed, technical way. But yes, I base my work on movement. It could be called dance, I suppose. I don't call it dance because I didn't go through any schools. I am self-educated. And then when I see the artists who went through all the academies and have technical background, it's hard for me to say it is dance. I cannot call myself a dancer as they are. But I do actually use dance, I use movement and I use dance improvisation. It's more like performance with the use of movement.
Ira Ferris: Neva, how would you describe your first meeting with Josipa? How did it come about and how did you two start collaborating?
Neva Lukić: We met already at the university. Actually, we met in a museum because we both studied art history so we worked as museum guides. It was a long time ago; fifteen years ago, I think. We got connected because both of us also did the other stuff. I was into literature and Josipa into movement. And somehow we spontaneously started to collaborate. Maybe one time I invited her and some of her colleagues to improvise on some poetry and then later on only Josipa and I continued collaborating. For the last five to six years, we are mostly collaborating on the workshop called The Body of Words (‘Tijelo Riječi’ in Croatian). This workshop is the longest-term project of ours, even though we also made some other literature-performances together.
Ira Ferris: Did your interest in the interaction between language (or the words) and the movement develop because you knew Josipa, or was it something that was developing even before that?
Neva Lukić: Well, actually, I don't know exactly the answer to this. I think I was always a bit interested in dance because I went to classical ballet classes as a kid and then I started again when I was twenty and went to modern contemporary dance classes. So, I think there was always interest from my side. Then there was this beautiful coincidence that Josipa was also into movement and physical theatre and somehow, spontaneously, this happened. Because even if my main, essential mean of expression is word, I don't see the word not connected to movement or to visual arts or to any other form of art. And I also find movement very important for the thoughts. There are lot of writers who were writing about this - how going for a walk is more beneficial for getting ideas or starting something than is sitting at home. Which is why this Corona is also interesting for me. Because I actually feel like my body became more spacious, because the space around me is limited. I'm in this small space which is this house, which I'm not used to. And so, I feel like there is my body and there is a space for thoughts. There is less of the other stuff going around, suffocating that space which can be good. It's maybe a new experience for all of us because we live in very fast times, we all live fast.
“I feel like my body became more spacious during this Corona times, because the space around me is limited. I'm in this small space, i.e. the house, which I'm not used to. And so, I feel like there is a space for thoughts. There is less of the other stuff going around, suffocating that space. It's maybe a new experience for all of us because we live in very fast times.”
Neva Lukić
Ira Ferris: Do you mean that you have centralized a bit and there are less distractions?
Neva Lukić: Yes, in a way. But, on the other hand, we are still distracted because of the technology. You can always speak to people. But you get less distracted by spending time in traffic, traveling, and so on. I wonder how Corona would look like without technology?
Ira Ferris: Yes, great question and we will address that at more length in a second because that's actually the central question that I would like to talk to you both about, and specifically in relation to your project ‘Goosbumps’. But before we go there, I'm interested to find out from Josipa how is she approaching working with words in her practice as a physical mover or a dancer? How are you working with language?
Josipa Bubaš: I work with body images. I have this durational performance which is completely based on improvisation, and then I developed a way of working with words, with images. I am basically working with images that come out from the body sensation and body postures, letting the flow of movement generate a narration, the words that are spoken and the stories that come out of me in a moment of speaking. So, I do this with this performance called 'Rubber Band' which I did with Rina Kotur. I started to work with this kind of narration that comes out of body and then I went further because of something that I was developing in my thesis. I went to structuring a methodology that starts from the body postures and then goes to everything I hear or touch. I pronounce everything I hear or touch and the quality of the surfaces that are being touched. And then I push it into the imagination. So, I start with the association and that then goes into some kind of surrealist story. It works because something with movement really opens up the imagination. And it's really interesting to put yourself in a position of creating something at the present moment, second by second, and you trust that this story will develop into something that makes sense and somehow it always does. I don't know how, but it does because my mind also works in a way that structures everything that it sees or feels. So, yeah, this is my way of working with movement and language. Everything comes from the body sensation and it should be spontaneous, not planned or based on previous idea. Letting the mind flow and catching some ideas and developing them further at that very moment. I think there is something to this body narratives and all the things that are stored in the body. So it's about putting yourself in a channelling position; allowing it to just come out. This narration is really body-based. So, it doesn't aim from quality literature or something like that. It aims for experience. It comes out of experience and it does not have a vision to become a literary piece.
Ira Ferris: If I'm understanding it right, the movement generates words and you don't work vice versa, where the words generate movement?
Josipa Bubaš: Well, I worked like this also in some pieces, in some collaborations where I just learned somebody else's lines and then made the choreography based on this. But actually, this is not my main interest.
Ira Ferris: To go back to Neva's thought: how would Corona look like without technology? It's a good question because the two of you have been developing a project called ‘Goosebumps’ (‘Ježenje’ in Croatian). This project was meant to be happening in a physical space. There was supposed to be a workshop where participants would come together IRL and then there would be a live performance to the audience that is present with you IRL. And because of the situation we are now in, the project had to find another way, if it wanted to happen. And that way was obviously to put it online and use the technologies. Was there a moment where you both thought of giving up on the project and then eventually you decided: oh, let's try and do this online? How did this transition from IRL to URL happen?
Neva Lukić: Well, this transition happened because I still wanted us to do at least a part of this project. Originally, it was imagined that the project would incorporate a conference, too. We would have the speakers from different disciplines speak about our skin and sensations on the skin. I should also mention that the whole project was generated through the interest I explored in my book of poetry which was based on the phenomenon of goosebumps, shivers, or whatever it's called; there are many words for it. So, we wanted to extend it because I think it's not related only to words but also to the body, as is obvious. So, we wanted it as a two-day conference and then some kind of workshops followed by some kind of performance based on my poetry and on Josipa's practice with voice and movement. And then when Corona started it somehow, spontaneously happened that we thought: why not do it now, because it is still possible. I think that it's interesting to experiment with the new means of possibilities. Not as to become more virtual, but maybe we can learn from this and use it later on in our practices. For example, I now had an idea, after we had our first zoom workshop yesterday: why wouldn't I make a double ceremony when my book is published, both physical and online presentation of the book. Which is not something I ever did before. So, I think it can give us ideas for the future and we can learn something. I still don't know how this workshop will look like, because we will have the online presentation at the end and Josipa and I never worked like this before. And I suppose, it is also new for the people who are participating. So, I really don't know what to expect. Maybe it will be much better than we expected because, of course, every time you do something new, you are a bit afraid of how it will come out.
Ira Ferris: As you mentioned, yesterday was the first meeting in a series of workshops. It was seven of us meeting on zoom and we discussed the ideas behind your work and how we might develop some kind of performance through that. As you said, it was the first time for both of you to run an online workshop. How did it feel for you? Was it anything that you expected it to be or were you surprised by it in some ways?
Josipa Bubaš: I had a stage fright before. I mean, usually when I meet people for a new project I have some kind of stage fright. But now I really didn't know what to expect. I had a range of expectations from the anxiety that technology will fail completely, because technology for me often fails for some strange reasons. And I also feared that people will not be able to connect through technology, that it will be strange and the communication will fail. But in the end, I was really surprised, in a very good way. I had a feeling that we communicated, that something actually happened and the connections were made between us and there were even some group dynamics, which is quite strange because I'm not into the technology and I always prefer live communication or performance, especially for this kind of workshops where Neva and I usually not only facilitate a conversation between people but also have physical warm ups. And we spend time together. If this were live workshops, we would probably spend four hours together, not just an hour and a half. So, all this changed. But I was really surprised that it went really well and that some kind of transmission happened.
Neva Lukić: Yes, definitely it happened, and actually the reason to work like this is to stay connected with the world because even now while we are in this state, you want to experience something new. Everybody is now working online, so it's very intriguing to see how it will work out. So, yes, yesterday was really inspiring for me, because actually the goal of this workshop is to connect to our bodies, because goosebumps happen to our body, we feel them for different kinds of reasons, emotional or physical. So yesterday when we had this presentation, I really felt like we actually are connected - both with other people in communication, and with our bodies.
Ira Ferris: It is interesting you are bringing that up because that was exactly what I was wanting to comment on. Given that your work is about the body and the materiality of the body and sensations in the body and through the body, I was trying to observe what is happening within my body as we were doing the zoom workshop. And I was also, like you Josipa, a bit nervous because it's something quite new. So, I was definitely sweating a bit and maybe even had goosebumps throughout it. But I also did feel a sensation of warmth between everyone. There was definitely physical presence of .... I don't know, it's really hard to explain it, but it was some sort of warmth as an emotional exchange. But at the same time, I was getting a bit agitated, spending time sitting and having the radiation of the screen in front of me and around me. And I felt very fidgety towards the end and a bit anxious again, but now for the other reason. But the thing is that if there wasn’t for this zoom option and if the whole thing happened lRL, as was initially planned, I wouldn't be able to participate in it.
Neva Lukić: Yeah, and while you knew Josipa from before, I would have never met you if there was not this Corona state. But in the end, we all hope for the future in physical space.
Ira Ferris: Yeah. But that's actually what I was wanting to ask. Because one of my anxieties at the moment and a fear in a way, is that more and more things will go online. And I'm drawing analogies with what happened with films and cinema. Once the technology developed so we can stay at home and watch films, we have lost this physical contact of coming together as a society to watch films. And because there have been talks for years about things moving into the digital realm, talks about robotization and mechanization, I am fearing that this might be the beginning of a new era. What are your thoughts around that? Is this just temporary or is this something that we will be seeing more and more?
Neva Lukić: Well, it was funny when they all started sending newsletters - all the museums and art institutions were promoting online exhibitions or online theatre, everything online. But then I was thinking; well we were completely online even before this caught on. Of course, now it's even more but even before this, everything was happening on Facebook. I remember speaking to some galleries in the past and they said that nobody attends exhibitions anymore because people think they saw everything on Facebook. Now, we just moved one step further. So, yes, I'm definitely afraid of this. I wouldn't want the world to become like this. And I hope that what is essential in humans, i.e. our physicality and our social needs, will prevail. I think that this turn to everything being online can’t work, until we really become robots which might also happen. But, yes definitely, everything is much more online. And I am actually angry at this online for some time. A lot of my friends live in different places and I also live and travel here and there, so I have spent so much time online even before this Carona. And I know this is actually not good, but I don't know if we could live without this? Because now the three of us are also in the contact because of that and everything is so much rooted in it. So, I don't know. I am afraid, but I also don't know how to live without it.
Ira Ferris: What are your thoughts around that, Josipa?
Josipa Bubaš: Quite similar, I would say. I mean, I use technology, of course, but it's not something that I love or that interests me or that I connect to with joy. I don't get excited when the new app comes out. I don't usually even know about it. And yeah, this surely is a step further to this virtualization of the world, which is not something that I feel as a good thing, that I support or that interests me. But at the same time, now that I had to stay at home and was not even able to go for a walk, I found some great lectures and some things that are online that I would not even know about if it weren't for the Internet. So, yeah, there are some benefits, of course. But yes, I am also afraid that it will lead to technocracy that will consume human natural energies, if something doesn't put a stop to it which probably won't happen. So, yeah, I'm not looking forward to this new world, actually. No, no.
Ira Ferris: And how do you think we could put a stop to it? Because I think that now is the time to do it, now or never in a way. I mean, if there was still a potential to stop it, it seems to me that a chance to act is now.
Josipa Bubaš: Yes. But, I think it's similar ... And maybe this is a silly analogy, but it's similar to banks, you know. We all use them, and if all of us would decide not to use them, they would not feed on us. But if there is not this huge consensus, if it is not the thousands of people who stop using technology, it means nothing. You just get totally, extremely marginalized and nobody cares for it. It would matter only if it would happen on a larger scale, globally. I don't know how to use technology without becoming a slave of it. Could there be a solution that goes halfway, like make use of it but don't get exploited by it? The idea to stop using it entirely seems too utopian. I don't think that it's realistic that people will give up technology because your work depends on it. It makes life easier in some ways. For instance, you just push a button and something is paid. So, conformism plays a major part in it. And as you said with television, it's easier to play something on your screen at home than to go to the cinema. This laziness and conformism will enable technology to rule the world. And, of course, money and a lot of lobbying and things like that. So, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know the solution.
“
I don't know how to use technology without becoming a slave of it. Could there be a solution that goes halfway, like make use of it but don't get exploited by it? The idea to stop using it entirely seems too utopian. I don't think it's realistic to hope that people will give up technology altogether, because it makes life easier in some ways. Conformism plays a major part in it. Laziness and conformism will enable technology to rule the world.”
Josipa Bubaš
Neva Lukić: But there is one thing that technology doesn't like, and that's sun! So, I suppose in the sunny Mediterranean countries or in Australia it is more difficult to make people stay at home in front of their computers all the time.
Josipa Bubaš: Yeah but you have a mobile that you can take with you all the time. So, you can be enjoying the sun and also typing a message.
Neva Lukić: Yes, but you cannot work on the computer because I was trying. So, computer doesn't like the sun. It's very difficult.
Ira Ferris: Yeah, these are some great thoughts, and I think you nailed it there Josipa when you spoke about balance, because I think it will come down to balance. Technology has its benefits, of course, in the world that we live in and the way we learned to live. But it's about not overusing it. Coming back to you projects, I do hope you don't continue doing all of your performances and works online, because I do hope you go back to physical spaces, but for the situation we are in now, it is great that you are opening your projects to exploration of something new and different. How will ‘Goosbumps’ proceed from where we started yesterday? How many more workshops before the actual performance? And how have you envisioned the final performance? How will you involve the audience in it?
Neva Lukić: Well, it's actually just a short workshop, it's one-week workshop and it's kind of a hybrid. Because we work online and, as Josipa said, we cannot spend so much time together, yesterday we divided people in smaller groups so they can communicate in the coming hours until we meet again as a whole group tomorrow. And yes, it's more complicated also because not everyone is good with technology, so some cannot come on zoom. So, this is really just a test workshop. I don't know how the performance via zoom will look like because I never did this, so I still don't know what shall all of us together decide - will we perform live or will we record it? But I am already really happy with what I have experienced so far. Texts which people wrote on the topic and the interesting conversation we had yesterday. I mean, even in this couple of days, I already gained so much out of this. The conversation we had yesterday was very interesting for me because people came from different fields, from different disciplines. So, it was very much like some kind of warm conference, like a combination between workshop and a conference but still very warm and cosy because we were all in our homes and there weren't so many people. But, I don't know, tomorrow we will see what people created and then we can proceed. I don't know what Josipa thinks?
Josipa Bubaš: I think that once we see what comes out, we will firstly adjust our usual methods to this new situation. And then, the participants will probably get some directions to create something that will involve minimal physical actions and also readings of the texts or performing the texts. It will be interesting to see how we can choreograph our visibility on zoom. Maybe by switching off the videos, switching on the videos, in groups or everybody at the same time. Maybe there is some kind of rhythm or game that can be developed through the possibilities that Zoom gives us - like mute or unmute, turn the screen off or on, or something like that. So, I think it can be interesting to explore how to choreograph the screen, how to use some methods that are usually used in space and translate them for the screen. Investigate how the screen could use some of the choreographed procedures. So, I think we will play with that a bit. It's only an experiment. I think we should emphasise experimenting and not expect some kind of stellar performance in terms of skills of using zoom. But I think there are things to try that can be interesting. So, we will see how this works.
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It will be interesting to see how we can choreograph our visibility on zoom. Maybe there is some kind of rhythm or a game that can be developed - like mute or unmute, turn the screen off or on, or something like that. It could be interesting to explore how to use some methods that are usually used in space and translate them for the screen.”
Josipa Bubaš
Ira Ferris: What are the first three words that come to your mind when you think about the situation we are in at the moment; by that I mean the social isolation?
Neva Lukić: Can it be personal or should I speak generally?
Ira Ferris: Personal might be better, but whatever comes to your mind. Three spontaneous words.
Neva Lukić: The first three things that came to my mind are: the cat, the tree, and the Goosebumps.
Ira Ferris: And for you Josipa?
Josipa Bubaš: For me it’s: immobility. Like not being able to move. Then: diving in. Using this time to dive into myself. And also: rest. Because I must admit that rest is something I have fantasized for some time, having the opportunity to do nothing for several months. And I realized that I actually gained this opportunity with Corona, not working as intensely as I am used to.
Ira Ferris: Well, in some way, that takes me to the last question, and it's actually the question that Neva raised earlier on. The question was, what would Corona look like without technology? How do you imagine that?
Josipa Bubaš: I think it would be much harder with not being able to communicate like this and not having the source of different information that I use quite a lot during this period. It would be much more challenging. But maybe it would not be so bad because there would be some forced introspection, which is always good. It would be like going on a Buddhist retreat. But, of course, it depends because not everybody has the opportunity to enjoy the time at home. We know that there is an increase in home abuses and domestic violence around the world, because people are spending unusual lengths of time together in the same space. So, yeah, it's different for everybody, but for me, I think it would be like a Buddhist retreat, which is a kind of privilege, I am aware of that.
Neva Lukić: Neva, what do you think?
Neva Lukić: Well, similar like Josipa. I think it would be much more difficult to still continue collaborating with people. But on the other hand, I'm sure we would gain benefits out of it. We would be much more with ourselves. It would be very good for artistic practices, for literature. I think that people would write much more; people would start writing letters. So, I am sure we would all gain something positive out of it. I think it would be very different. Because now we are all in isolation and the world changed because people are not traveling so much and there is much less pollution. But on the other hand, we are actually living the same kind of lives, because I think our lives were based on technology for a long time. So, I think it's not such an extreme change. If we did this without technology, that would be an extreme change. And then we would actually come back to ourselves and to the world as it used to be before the Internet. So, I think it would be rewarding. It would be difficult to cure our addictions; for the first two weeks we would all be crazy, but then we would make peace with it. And I think that is the point of the Corona. We can actually observe how the human being is constructed. On the one hand, it is very good that we get used to things. I was even thinking, we could all get used to this now. You know, we could live like this for twenty years, not traveling or anything. Because we are like animals who can really easily adjust. And on the one hand, that's good. But on the other hand, that's really bad because then we become less critical. Then we forget, because our memories are very short-term. So, we forget how it used to be before and we start living something that we maybe don't want. So, I think that's my biggest fear. Getting used to things in life.
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On the one hand, it is very good that we get used to things. I was thinking; we could all get used to this now. You know, we could live like this for twenty years, not traveling or anything. Because we are like animals who can really easily adjust. On the one hand, that's good. But on the other, that's really bad because then we become less critical.”
Neva Lukić
Ira Ferris: Yes, I really agree with that. I actually spoke to my dad recently about it and I said that adaptability is in a way a real curse, because it ultimately makes us not care. Because we know that whatever happens, we will just adapt to the new situation. And we often adopt by simply continuing doing the same things, just repackaging them in new ways. But we don't really stop and reflect and take time to change things, because we are wired up to quickly adapt.
Neva Lukić: And actually, it's scary because you see that almost nothing depends on you. I mean, of course it does but this main changes in your life very often don't depend on you at all.
Josipa Bubaš: Yes, no control, you have no control. It's just a fact. And it was always like this. It's also connected to this adaptability, you know. You realize you really don't have control when it comes to these kinds of major disturbances, like war or whether conditions or something like that, so if we were not able to adapt, it would be difficult.
Neva Lukić: To me it seems that we are much less critical in the modern, contemporary times. For example, we all accepted some, I don't know, Facebook. Everything is accepted, always. Nobody is critical anymore. And I think that's not good. At least if I speak about artists and intellectuals and this kind of people, I don't see them being critical at all, anymore. They're critical within their own practices, which are, I don't know, funded by some funds. But that's not really being critical, in my opinion. But that's another topic.
Ira Ferris: Yeah, but it is very connected. Thank you both for taking time to talk to me. And yeah, I think we touched some really... Well, you brought up some really interesting thoughts. So, thank you for that.
Neva Lukić: Thank you for inviting us.
Josipa Bubaš: Yes, definitely.
Ira Ferris: I'll let you go now. In forty minutes, I'm actually having another zoom or Skype meeting with Mia to work on your workshop. But I'm going to go and have a walk before that because I really am getting fidgety now. I can't spend another hour by the computer so.... I'll let you go and I'll see you again on zoom tomorrow, for the workshop.
Neva Lukić: Yes! Thank you.
Josipa Bubaš: Thank you.
