Yorgo Kaporis is a multi-talented dancer of Macedonian-Greek origin. He’s achievements in dance span across several different styles from folk dancing, to ballroom to ballet.  He is currently the Artistic Director, Choreographer and founding member of "Dusha Balkana", the Australian Academy of Balkan Dance & Culture. Yorgo has danced professionally in Bulgaria with the famed Pirin Ensemble for 4 years. Through his practice of pagan dance, he explores and experiences a deep spiritual connection between our bodies and the Mother Earth.

Podcast with Yorgo was recorded on 30 January 2020, on the Gadigal land of Eora nation, traditional custodians of the land on which we live, work, and dance. We pay our respect to their elders, past present and emerging.

Podcast image is by Lena Kramaric.
Music used is by Trevor Brown.

Artemis Projects production, commissioned by Delving into Dance and Critical Path for the Interchange Festival.

Podcast with Yorgo Kaporis (full transcript)

Ira Ferris: What three words come to your mind when you think about dance?

Yorgo Kaporis: Spirituality. Connection to Mother Earth. Connection to everyone. I know that's not three words, but...

Ira Ferris: It's three concepts.

Yorgo Kaporis: Yes, three concepts.

Ira Ferris: Is there a link between connection to everyone and connection to Mother Earth? 

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. And especially with Balkan dancing where we all hold hands and we usually hold hands in a complete closed circle. What does the circle represent? Unity. Inside, outside. It was a way for them in the old days to keep evil spirits on the outside, good spirits on the inside. And look at what's happening in a circle. The heart chakra is pointed in, towards the centre of the circle. So, if you look at a lot of the ritual dances, someone will always break off and do some stuff right in the centre of the circle. Why? Because you've got the ecstasy point where everyone's energy is concentrated inward, looking at that person who's feeling everybody's vibration and dancing according to what their spirit is feeling.

Ira Ferris: That's beautiful, because somehow in modern society, coming into the circle has become a thing of exhibitionism. Maybe it has lost that connection with the spirit.

Yorgo Kaporis: I think it has, but there's also that element of shyness where people think, I don't want to go in the centre of the circle, I might not be good enough. You know, expressing yourself through dance isn't about being good enough or bad enough, or wonky or feeling awkward. It's about being able to freely express how you feel and how you interpret the music.

Ira Ferris: However, in ritual and Balkan dances, pagan dances that you specialise in, there are particular choreographies and steps that one is taught to dance. So I am curious, how is self-expression featured in that and is there a room for interpretation?

Yorgo Kaporis: So, I do a lot of interpretation from the music. I let the music dictate how I'm going to choreograph, the shapes and patterns I'm going to form in the choreographies, which are usually geometric shapes and sequences. I will always start the dance with the traditional steps from wherever that region is where the dance originates. I think it's important to show those original steps so that they are not lost, because they've been around for hundreds of years. But as a choreographer, I allow myself artistic expression, and my artistic expression is like a funnel. Once I start with those traditional steps and keep hearing the music hundreds of times over, my feet will just start doing things on their own and that funnel just gets wider and wider, and I just let loose and really let the universe and my own DNA dictate what's going to happen to that dance.

Ira Ferris: It makes me think about the dancer and choreographer from UK, Akram Khan, who has a background in Indian Kathak dance, and who said that the only time he is still is when he dances.

Yorgo Kaporis: Love it. And it's not a stillness in terms of standing still or sitting still. It is the stillness of mind, because you are so involved in the dance and the steps and everything that you're doing that the mind just becomes still. I call it meditation in movement. It's fluid. It flows. You don't need to think about anything.

Ira Ferris: Nothing clears my mind as much as dance.

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've had a really, really sore ankle because I overdid it last year with a bit too many things. But as soon as the music starts and I'm out there presenting, everything just goes. I'm dancing now so nothing bothers me.

Ira Ferris: Since you went into the legs and the ankle, one thing that I really noticed and it was never as clear as when I danced with you at Woodford, is how much stamping of the earth there is in these traditional dancing. The ones you were teaching us were from the Balkan, but then I looked at the ones from England and various other places and everything involved lots of stamping of the earth. Is there a reason for that?

Yorgo Kaporis: Yeah, it's honouring Mother Earth. There's particular dances in the Balkans that actually honour Mother Earth, where we stamp into the earth to wake up the spirits and say provide us with a good harvest, provide us with the health and prosperity, we'll give back to the earth what you give to us. We've forgotten that in this society. I remember reading... Because I used to dance barefoot until this ankle problem and I remember reading an article that said, the biggest downfall of human society was the invention of shoes. We have lost our direct connection with Mother Earth. We have lost our direct connection with feeling who we are. What's underneath our feet. Mother Earth is living and breathing. If she's living and breathing and she's emitting energy and I'm dancing and honoring everything she does for us to sustain us, then really I'm feeling her from the soles of my feet, coming right up to the top of my head. So, stamp! Let's stamp to reawaken and invigorate the spirits and say, we know you're here.

Ira Ferris: That was actually the only thing that I missed in that experience while dancing with you and dancing with other people in the circle, and coming to this harmony of movement and having those beautiful rhythms around us. I missed the fact that we are not on the grass. I was barefoot, but still there was this barrier between me and earth. and as we were dancing, you were talking about Mother Earth and connecting to her. And I just felt there is this thing, i.e. the man-made floor that blocks that full connection.

Yorgo Kaporis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's quite a shame because everything's become about WHS (work, health and safety) and watch this and watch that. Jees! People have been dancing for thousands, if not millions of years on this planet. They are honouring not only themselves, but they are honouring Mother Earth. As soon as we put that barrier there... I mean, I'm pretty sure she knows that we are honouring her, but I can't feel her. There is that barrier. I don't see any of the indigenous Australians dancing up on a stage. They create a sand circle. Why? Because they need to maintain that connection and that relationship. It's been forgotten in our modern day dancing. But, from another perspective, the heart chakra still becomes so activated when we're dancing that it's this real expression of open heart and being able to connect.

Ira Ferris: You're now mentioning heart chakra and when we spoke earlier, before we started recording, you have mentioned that there are particular instruments that connect to different chakras, different energy centres, in our bodies. Can you talk to me a bit about that? How and which instruments connect with which chakra?

Yorgo Kaporis: So, if we look at the drum, any sort of drum, it's sound stimulates base chakra. The drum is one of the oldest instruments found all over the world, so it's that connection to the primordial being. If we look at the 'gajda' which is like a bagpipe, it's a pure hearth chakra. There's a drone and there's the mouthpiece that creates all different tones and sounds. It's a higher resonance than the drum. It's still got the drone in there. Why? Because we're connecting the base chakra with the heart chakra and through the sacral all coming up, so they all become connected. The drone is one big, long tube so that's what's been created through that. It's a big, long tube of connection. The 'kaval', which is a flute type instrument, no mouthpiece on it, has a much higher pitch, and that resonates with the throat chakra. When people in the Balkans sing they will often try to emanate those instruments by holding particular notes or resonating or doing an open throat type singing. It's that whole connection that then when the instruments are combined all together.... 'Tambura' is another one, a string instrument like a small bouzouki so higher pitch again and you have third eye and crown chakra. So combine all those instruments together ... The ancient people knew what they were doing. They knew what the connections were, they knew that the sound resonance of all these instruments brought together was going to open oneself up, to stimulate all of those.

Ira Ferris: Is it stimulating chakras only for those who play instruments or is it transferred to those who dance?

Yorgo Kaporis: It's transferred to everybody who's dancing and listening. I mean, you don't even need to be dancing. You could be sitting and just listening to the music and it's still going to stimulate all of those chakras.

Ira Ferris: When we spoke about improvisation and the space for improvisation in traditional dance, you mentioned geometry. Can you tell me a bit about its significance and what kind of geometry you had in mind?

Yorgo Kaporis: Again, a lot of the choreography is based around natural elements that were around the people. A spinning wheel, for example, or a water wheel. The dancers will hold hands in the centre facing out and make the shape of that spinning wheel. A lot of the embroideries that exist in the Balkans are all geometric shapes. It's not very usual that you're going to see a nice, perfect circle. It's squares, it's diamonds, it's complex star shapes. There's flowers incorporated. And there's our connection to nature and what we see around us and what we feel around us. So, that's brought out into the choreography. Where's the significance? The significance is sacred. Geometry has its own resonance and its own vibration. Combine that with the instruments. Combine that with choreography and shapes you are making while you are dancing and you've got a whole picture of energy work happening. Why are people happy when when they're dancing? Scientifically it releases a lot of endorphins but when you look at the spiritual aspect of it, it's because you're in absolute harmony with everything, everything around you. Next time you dance, have a look around you and the green on trees looks greener. You know, you can feel various vibrations and energies working around you.

Ira Ferris: It's like a clear vision after dancing.

Yorgo Kaporis: And it usually lasts quite a while. I've never done any drugs, so I can't refer to any drugs. But I have done ayahuasca in Peru. And really the only thing I can liken it to is that it is almost like a mild form of ayahuasca experience where you just totally open up to the universe so you become this vessel that's receiving energy from the universe and from the earth that you stand on and you're in this ecstasy and the ecstasy lasts for half an hour, or an hour after you've finished dancing. That's why we feel so good and so happy and relaxed.

Ira Ferris: Imagine the world where everyone would dance.

Yorgo Kaporis: Incredible.

Ira Ferris: As you mentioned, and I've been reflecting on that, that there so many people out there who have lost freedom to dance, who feel afraid to dance. What do you think happened? Why do some people feel that they can't dance?

Yorgo Kaporis: I think society. I think people are cruel when it comes to pointing out to someone who's doing something a little bit different or expressing themselves a little bit differently or can't maintain timing properly. It's that whole embarrassment thing. I don't want to embarrass myself any more. I don't want people to talk about me. But you know what? Who cares? Who cares? It's that saying, dance like nobody is watching. Because as long as you have maintained your freedom in what you wanted to express and you've walked away feeling fantastic about yourself, if someone's pointing the finger or someone snickering or someone's laughing, that's their own reflection. It's not a reflection of what you're doing and what you're experiencing. It's a reflection on them being totally ego-minded and going, oh, look at that, they're not doing that properly. Cause what's proper? You know, that could be that person's artistic expression. Who am I to define? Excuse me, you're not doing that properly.

Ira Ferris: Looking at the history of pagan dances, is your understanding and your knowledge of it that at those times everyone participated in dancing?

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. I mean, look, I used to go back to the villages in Macedonia or anywhere in the Balkans. I keep referring to Macedonia because of my background. But you go to any of the villages in the Balkans and there's always some sort of festivity going on. And the churches knew what was going on with these pagan rituals and have attached signs to particular festivities. But you talk to the old people and they talk about this dance being in relation to honoring snakes who are eating mice around the corn fields and providing that element of protection. It's modern Christianity that has identified the snake as an evil kind of symbol. But we got dances where we weave like snakes as part of the choreography. What are we doing? We're honoring snakes or snake god, you know, provide us with that protection. So those pagan elements still continue. But of course, with the advent of Christianity, people have changed their outlook on it and the concept of it, but they are still related to pagan rituals.

Ira Ferris: And I'm wondering what happens to the society that stops dancing like that, holding hands, coming into circle, sharing in something like that? What kind of society do we create by not dancing?

Yorgo Kaporis: We first of all, lose connection to ourselves. We then lose connection with the people that are around us. And what happens when you lose those connections? You lose connection with Mother Earth, with Father Sun. You lose connection with the elements. You lose connection with what it means to express yourself and be part of a community. I was born in the 70s. So when I was growing up, we had the extended families where you had uncles, aunties, cousins, grandparents living with you. Modern society has taught us that we're supposed to live separately. We're losing that connection. But we are now looking at this big turn around in communion living. Why do people want community living? It's about connecting. It's about being in touch with other people. I find it really sad when I look at particular regimes all around the world that stop their people from expressing themselves in dance, because those politicians, they know what they're doing. They're purposely killing people's identities that have existed for thousands of years.

Ira Ferris: And joy and freedom.

Yorgo Kaporis: Yes, absolutely. Like you said before, imagine if the whole world danced. What happened to dance in our school curriculums? When I was growing up we all did dancing in school. It didn't matter what type it was. We all did some form of dancing. But now it's gone. Now, it's about learning mathematical equations. But dancing has got mathematical equations. Let's look at the mathematical equations in that and what it's doing to our body. All those studies of, if you want to prevent alzheimer's and getting old in your mind, what's the best exercise to do? Dance!

Ira Ferris: Yeah, I mean, you were talking about geometry, but then also, if I'm correct, there is something in the rhythm of the Balkan dances, Balkan music that's similar to the rhythm of a peacefully beating human heart.

Yorgo Kaporis: So we've got a dance in Macedonia and Bulgaria called Pajduško. 'Duško' means soul. The rhythm for pajduško is 'dum dum', 'dum dum', 'dum dum', 'dum dum', 'dum dum' ... What's that? That's my heart beat. Why is there a rhythm that's honoring my heart beat? Why when I do the dance pajduško, do I feel this ecstatic explosion that's coming from my heart chakra? It's just fascinating and I keep on going back to: the ancients knew the secrets of all these rhythms and everything, and they have just been lost.

Ira Ferris: You're describing the experience as ecstasy and expansion but for me, I experience something more like a real grounding. And for me, that stillness is about going in and that connection to the earth. I mean, there is also this expansion and connection to the universe. So, there is this combination of real peacefulness and expansiveness. And yeah... I just wish everyone felt free to do it. And when I'm imagining this world where everyone dances, I'm imagining it as a world without judgment.

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. And I think it comes with age as well. You actually stop giving a shit, the older you get. I'm nearly 50 and I just couldn't give a rat's cohuna about what anybody says or what anybody thinks.

Ira Ferris: How did you get into dance in the first place and why pagan dances?

Yorgo Kaporis: It's my cultural background. I'm half Greek, half Macedonian. Dad's Greek. Mom's Macedonian. I grew up around a lot of the Macedonian side of the family because I had cousins who were my age who are Macedonian. So I feel more Macedonian than I do Greek. And I identify stronger to the Macedonian culture also because my Macedonian grandparents were here in Australia, but also because I feel more connected to Macedonian music than to Greek music. Mum tells a story when I was very, very young. I'm talking one, two, three years old. Mum being quite religious and we would go to church every Sunday. And I used to dance in the church to the psalm singers. So obviously it is ingrained in me. And the ladies in churches would turn around and say this is a house of God, he should not be dancing in here. And mom would turn around and say, what's to say he's not dancing for God? And that would obviously shut them up.

Ira Ferris: Was your mother a dancer?

Yorgo Kaporis: Never professionally. It was always village events and any dance organisations from the community. But she's a very good dancer.

Ira Ferris: She loves dancing?

Yorgo Kaporis: Loves it.

Ira Ferris: So she's a dancer. Why do we need to think about this idea of 'professional'?

Yorgo Kaporis: Yeah, exactly. There's my thought process where you just kind of go, oh no she doesn't get paid for it, she just dances at social events. So, yeah, you're right. She's a dancer.

Ira Ferris: And she felt what dance means, that it could be a connection to God or dancing for some divinity...

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I went to Macedonian school, I went to Greek school as part of going to those Saturday schools, as if five days wasn't enough. And as part of going to those schools they offered the cultural dancing and I was always put at the front of the line to lead the lines. And I would often do my own little steps and stuff during performances which used to drive the dance teachers crazy. But the crowds would absolutely love it because they could see I was expressing myself the way I wanted to express myself, according to what the music was telling me to do. So, from a very, very young age, I was dancing and just had always been into dance. I've danced professionally ballroom for many years. I've done ballet for many, many years. But I always come back to more traditional dancing because there's a real spiritual connection to it. I loved ballroom, loved ballet, but they are very unnatural forms of dance.

Ira Ferris: I love how you said that when you would go onto your own tangent and express yourself, and again the word improvisation comes to mind, how crowd would love it. And that's my experience when I see somebody on the dance floor who is just completely in their freedom. And very often these are the people who didn't have dance training and who might say, I'm not a good dancer. And then they go and they invent something amazing. And I just love observing that. So, I think what people actually love observing is freedom.

Yorgo Kaporis: Absolutely. I mean, the energy that person is exuding when they are just totally free; it's mesmerizing.

Ira Ferris: But it's also something that we all know we have lost. So there is nostalgia in that looking.

Yorgo Kaporis: Yeah. Absolutely.

Ira Ferris: So, how would you engage with this question, why does dance matter now? And I would like to separate it in two questions. One is, why does dance matter in general, always? And then why now, in particular?

Yorgo Kaporis: Dance matters because it is connecting with yourself. It is a form of meditation that you can do in a big group settings or at home by yourself. Put on some music and just dance and see how you feel about yourself and your environment. We've been dancing for millions of years on this planet, which goes into the next question of why does dance matter now? The vibrations that are coming through to the earth at the moment are so low and so heavy and so designed to bring everybody down. We're addicted to our Iphones; our faces are in a blue screen. We've got no connection to anything or anyone anymore. Why it matters now is that it's going to lift the vibration of the earth. It lifts the vibration of the people next to you and around you. It is connecting and holding hands again so that we amplify that vibration, so it's not just one person trying to save the planet and fight against all the energies that are trying to bring us all down. Dance matters now because we need to lift all of that. We need to express who we are, what we are and why we are. That's why it matters now. And that's why it matters always.

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Facebook: @DushaBalkana