Nicole Sutton is a Lecturer in Accounting at the University of Technology Sydney. Her research concerns the design and use of management systems, which she has studied in various projects based in universities, aged care, innovation diffusion, supply chains, and sustainability. Since 2018, she is a co-host of the Think: Business Futures podcast on 2ser. Even though her day job has nothing to do with dance, Nicole is a passionate, fun and highly inventive dancer which is why I wanted to hear her thoughts on Why Dance Matters Now?

Podcast with Nicole was recorded on 25 January 2020, on the Gadigal land of Eora nation, traditional custodians of the land on which we live, work, and dance. We pay our respect to their elders, past present and emerging.

Podcast image is by Lena Kramaric.
Music used is by Trevor Brown.

Artemis Projects production, commissioned by Delving into Dance and Critical Path for the Interchange Festival.

Podcast with Nicole Sutton (full transcript)

Ira Ferris: What three words come to your mind when you think about dance?

Nicole Sutton: Fun. Free. Friends.

Ira Ferris: By mentioning friends, it sounds like dance is something you do with a group of people?

Nicole Sutton: Yes and no. So, I don't work with dance; I don't earn money in relation to dance or anything to do with my job. But I love to dance. I love to dance with friends. When we go out for a night and we want to have fun, we will dance together. If I have a friend who is feeling a bit tired, I suggest we go for a boogie which is kind of synonymous with let's go and have fun. So, there's that aspect where I definitely dance with friends. But I also really enjoy going for a dance by myself, going out by myself to a nightclub. I don't do it so much these days but there was a period when I'd go out by myself and just dance by myself. I love it as well.

Ira Ferris: What made you wanna do that, go out on your own and dance?

Nicole Sutton: [00:01:24] Perhaps it's been a long week, or it's weekend and I just want to go and experience that freedom. And sometimes no one else is available to go out. But other times, I've intentionally just gone by myself because there's a different aspect to when you go out by yourself. For example, you can just become one of the mass on the dance floor. The lights are out, the DJ is playing ... And, you know, even when you go together with friends, you're not really there with them anyway. Everyone's just dancing by themselves. It's very hard to talk. So, when you go out by yourself, you have complete freedom just to kind of join in the mass without having to check in with everybody. And you can just be there and be in that flow, which is an amazing experience.

Ira Ferris: Is that a part of the freedom that you've mentioned earlier?

Nicole Sutton: Yeah. So, I think there are different aspects of freedom. There's freedom in terms of that, where you just go and you're completely anonymous. You have no identity apart from just a smiling face on the dance floor. And other people are making eye contact with you and smiling back and appreciating that moment. So, there's that freedom. But, you know, even when you are with your friends, ... Dancing is about letting go, you know, letting go of your inhibitions, letting go of your physicality. There's a physical freedom in it as well, which is just great.

Ira Ferris: And have you always felt confident and comfortable to do that, to dance in public?

Nicole Sutton: No, no. I remember when the moment clicked because when I was younger, I remember being conscious that I didn't know how to dance. This is when I was quite young, just having this awareness that I didn't know how to dance. And perhaps it was because... So, I have a younger sister and we get along great but when we were younger, we liked to differentiate ourselves. I was the one that was playing ball sports like soccer or netball. And she was the one that pursued gymnastics and dance. And I think because of that, I had this idea that I didn't know how to dance because I have never done dance classes. But I remember the first time that I was at a friend's party and this was when I was in primary school, so I was probably 9 or 10. And it was a dance party in their parents basement and there were some disco lights and they were playing some music, and I remember that night I thought to myself: 'I don't care, I'm just gonna dance. Even if I don't know how to.' At the end of the evening, I don't know how this happened, but the parents were giving out prizes for the best dancers. Why they needed to do that, I can't remember but it was like a scrunchie and they gave it to me and I was like, I was actually really, oh, I just I didn't think that I was good or anything like that. And they were like, yeah, you get the scrunchie. And I think that was one of the moments that kind of clicked over in terms of being like, oh, just because you don't go to a dance school or have lessons doesn't mean that you can't do it. Yeah, that's what that moment represented.

Ira Ferris: There are so many people out there who still think that they can't dance and so they don't dance. So having that experience that you had, what would you tell them to help them get over that inhibition?

Nicole Sutton: Yeah, I think. I mean, there are those really cliche things about not really caring if people are watching or not... I think I would just recommend to them to just feel the music and know that there's absolutely no right or wrong way of doing that. You can just feel it and respond to it however you want. And on the other side, the fact is that no one else really cares. Like no one genuinely cares. Chances are they are busy feeling the music themselves. And if they are busy feeling music themselves, they don't really have time or space to really kind of look around and be like, oh, my goodness. I think we're all much more afraid of judgment than what really exists. I do hear this, oh, I don't dance, and I'm not sure if it's something they just don't enjoy doing or if it's something that they're afraid of or something that they've just decided long ago that they don't do. It makes me a little bit sad that they wouldn't want to get in on that, because I enjoy it so much so it's a little bit hard to relate to. But yeah, you hear this. You hear this a bit: 'I just don't do that.' Okay, well, you're missing out.

Ira Ferris: I'm thinking about this 'not enjoying to dance'... One thing that I read as I was researching this theme was a text by an anthropologist who wrote that dance was something that we have done innately. We danced and we even depicted images of us dancing before we've invented other means of communication. So, it seems to me something happened along the lines historically that made us stop dancing and we came to that point where dancing is maybe not enjoyable, although it was part of our nature. Which makes me think that not dancing is in a way removing ourselves from our nature and therefore from the Nature as a broader thing.

Nicole Sutton: Definitely. The idea that somewhere along the way we've become disembodied really resonates. Like the idea that we're so busy in our heads or in our virtual worlds and in our lifestyles as well; we are disconnected from a more embodied way of living where you have more physicality in your life generally. Yeah, I think that that's probably contributed to this kind of resistance. And when you were speaking about this innate desire to dance, I couldn't help but reflect on thinking about my little niece who is two and just like any other little kid who is completely innocent of external judgment, she loves to dance. It's definitely innate in her. She bops around and she bounces around and music plays, big smile comes on her face and she's off. And there would definitely be something about our physical environment and our social conditions that eventually stop that happening, so somewhere along the way you lose that innocence and then you start worrying about how you look or what other people are thinking. And then that's probably something that needs to be overcome again to get back into dance.

Ira Ferris: And as you were saying on the dance floor, although you are surrounded with people, you are actually in your own space where you don't have to worry about judgments of how you move. Which is the thing that at some point in our lives we start being so concerned about; the image we project and how we are perceived. Which makes me think again about freedom; freeing yourself from that. You know, somebody said in one of these interviews: don't worry about judgment, because judgment is always an issue of a person who is judging. It's not your issue. The problem is not your movement. The problem is their perception.

Nicole Sutton: Or you might even be projecting that they are judging you. Like, it's actually your perception of their judgment, whether it exists or not. But yes, it's that rather than the movement as you say. It's just this kind of mind game. And I think that if it's fear that stops people from dancing, then the thing that enables them to dance is a sense of safety. So, where you feel safe to dance and some people in order to feel safe to dance, they need their friends around. And the idea of going out by yourself would be terrifying, then. Also, some people need the safety of darkness or at least the lights down. And you can tell, right. You're out on the dance floor, it's pretty dark, the lights come on and everyone goes home. Or alternatively, the other way, you're out at an event and the music's playing but no one goes on the dance floor until the lights go down. So, they need darkness to feel safe. But yeah. Well, I guess what I'm saying is that there is safeness in anonymity as well, because no one knows who you are or where you're going. You will never see these people again. There's safety in that. But all of those things cultivate a sense that I'm safe now, to get over some sort of fear of those judgments that might be held by others.

Ira Ferris: Imagine if we’d extend this sense of safety to 24h, every single day. So, imagine the world where everyone would dance and there would be no person who would think that they can't dance. And days would maybe begin with a little dance, just like we brush our teeth, wash our faces, have a shower. What would that world look like?

Nicole Sutton: Well, it'd be a lot more colorful world, and I think going to work would be much more pleasurable. Instead of seeing everyone a bit sleepy and needing their coffee, and a bit down heading off to work, I think people would be... There would be a pep in their step! And they would probably have a smile on their face. I mean, you get the natural kind of endorphin hit. You've got probably some music or you've heard music. It brings in energy. And so, if everyone was dancing all the time because they felt safe in their society and they felt confident in themselves as well... Yeah. Imagine not having all this fear hanging over you. That gone, oh, it would be a pleasure.

Ira Ferris: Do you think it would be a world without judgment?

Nicole Sutton: It would be a world that would have at least one less fear, a world with one less fear and one less judgment. And maybe if that fear didn't exist and that judgment didn't exist, maybe others wouldn't exist too. Cause, there is so much mental work that goes into it. There is a lot of mental work not to dance, to fight something that potentially is innate because you're worried about someone else, the way that other person is thinking about you. And even though that person is probably a good person, you're projecting them to be so mean that they would think badly upon you because of the way you move your body. I mean, that's a lot of mental work. And imagine all of that was just gone. Yeah, that'd be beautiful.

Ira Ferris: What would we fill that space with?

Nicole Sutton: We would probably be more connected. Because that fear also distances us. That fear of someone else judging you distance you from that person because you are projecting that they would have a negative thought about you because of the way in which you move your body. So that has to create a distancing between you and that person. So, if that was to be gone, then we would be more connected, more trusting, more happy to be around each other, because we're not double guessing someone else.

Ira Ferris: Dance is obviously connected to movement, but there is this dancer and choreographer from UK, Akram Khan, who says that the only time he is still is when he dances.

Nicole Sutton: What I think about when you say that... I mean, it's an interesting statement. I guess I would probably imagine an internal stillness. Because I know this happens to me on a dance floor when I'm dancing and I'm really, really in it, and I'm just in that flow. It's one of those few times in my life that I don't have the chatter of my brain, you know, because I'm in the flow, because I'm moving and just feeling, I'm not thinking anymore. So, in relation to that idea of being still in dance, I can definitely relate to the idea of being still of mind and calm. And it kind of cleanses, you know, you come out fresh without all the chatter that goes on inside.

Ira Ferris: And also, just being in your element...

Nicole Sutton: Yeah. And just being in it as well. You are not in and out. And this doesn't happen all the time when I dance. Sometimes I'm not feeling it. I try. But maybe I'm tired or maybe I'm not really feeling the music, But I want to, and I'm trying. And then, that's a completely different experience. And there's no stillness then. And then I start to feel awkward and self-conscious. And yeah, it's so much harder. Yeah. So, when you're in it, you're in it. But there can be times when you're kind of in and out, in and out, which is not a fun experience.

Ira Ferris: But at least you are aware of it. You have that body awareness to recognize this process that you go through, which is being able to recognize that process while you dance but also probably while doing a lot of other things in your life.

Nicole Sutton: It definitely gives a heightened awareness of yourself. And maybe because of those early insecurities that you haven't been taught to do this or that there might be negative judgments. So, there's still potential heightened awareness, even now if you are super confident, and super comfortable. There's still that moment when you just step over that threshold and then let go. And that stepping over that threshold or stepping over that old fear gives you that heightened awareness that you don't get in other things that you just do thoughtlessly. So that is one of those experiences where you're able to recognise and enquire into how you're feeling, as opposed to during a day where you're feeling crappy and you don't even realize it. I think, you know, if you're not feeling good on the dance floor, you can tell.

Ira Ferris: Yeah, it's like body being heavy.

Nicole Sutton: Mm hmm. Yeah. Body is heavy. Feet don't do. And also, I don't know about you, but if I'm not in it, I feel bored with my movements. I'm just so bored with these movements. And I don't know how I can do this in a way that is more interesting to me. And that's kind of a frustrating experience. I'm just stepping and stepping and ... I feel like I'm boring and I'm not, in that case, even worried about what other people think. I'm judging myself.

Ira Ferris: There are a few things I'm thinking of now... But I'll go down this path first. It almost seems like it was a bit of a good fortune that you had an early insecurity that you then overcame. It gave you a certain sense of empowerment in thinking that there was something that you once thought you were not capable of and you've discovered that you can do it.

Nicole Sutton: Yeah, I think you're right. I never thought about that in that way before. But there is definitely an extra level of joy in it that must go back to having overcome a time where I felt I couldn't. There is that element where I probably appreciate it more because of those early experiences and those early insecurities. It's more precious.

Ira Ferris: Mm hmm. And then also, I guess what I'm experiencing in those moments is that I can translate it into something else in my life. If there is something that I currently think of as no, I can't do that, I reflect back on those other things that I once thought I can't do and I take that journey into these journey and I think, hang on, maybe I can.

Nicole Sutton: I am probably not as reflective as that, but I definitely do feel more confident after I've had a dance. You know, there's a confidence, a self-confidence that comes after you walk out of a club. There's an additional confidence that probably is the next iteration of that.

Ira Ferris: What does concept or term 'spatial awareness' signify to you? How would you define it? And how is it featured in your life?

Nicole Sutton: When I think of spatial awareness, I picture an individual in the center of something and they are looking out from within and they are to differing degrees, so different levels of awareness, conscious of their surroundings. Examples of spatial awareness. So, in some cases I'm very trained to be spatially aware. In my work, a part of my work, I teach at the university... And so when I walk into a classroom and I'm in a classroom, I'm acutely aware of the space of that classroom and that could be the physical infrastructure, you know, the walls, the shape of the room, how echo it is, the location of the desks or the chairs and so on... The location of the students. But also within that space, the kind of flows that are happening as well. The noise, how much people are able to move around. To what degree can they see other people or not. So, in some aspects of my life, I know when I walk into some spaces to kind of click into that zone to be like, okay, so what's going on here? It's so integral to the quality of learning that can happen and the nature of the learning that can happen. So, for example, if you set up a classroom so that it mimics the setup of a lecture hall, so you have the whiteboard up the front, rows of tables and chairs where all the students are facing the teacher, you immediately prime the students to be in a learning mode of reception because it's mimicking what happens in a lecture or in a movie theater where some action is happening at the front and it's their job to sit there and listen and to receive. And if you want to have collaboration, you want to have the students volunteering questions or ideas, if you want them talking to one another, it is just not going to happen in that kind of learning space. Or maybe it will, but you've just set up a huge hurdle with the nature of that space. So, if you want the students to be talking to each other, then best is to move those desks out of the way and move the location of the teacher away from the front where the board is and put them either in the middle so they're kind of coordinating, or just put them in the corner. I guess in one sense, what you're doing is communicating to the students that this is how the learning is going to happen in this space. Just by the physicality of it. And you're making it easier for them to do it as well.

Ira Ferris: There seems to be a choreography in that, in the way the bodies are positioned in relationship to each other and to the objects in the space?

Nicole Sutton: Absolutely. Absolutely. And when I plan my lessons, a part of the planning is actually thinking through the configuration of the space and how it might change as well. You have to actually plan out your spatial configuration, you have to plan the dance of a classroom in advance, because it absolutely will start to shape the flows, the conversations and the ways in which the students will be learning.

Ira Ferris: That's interesting. So, you are a dancer in a way...

[both laughing]

Nicole Sutton: Yeah. Perhaps. Perhaps. [laughs]

Ira Ferris: So, how would you engage with this question that I proposed at the beginning when I approached you to do this interview: Why does dance matter now? And I also want to separate it because there are two questions in there for me there. One is why does dance matter in general? And then why do we even ask this question, why does it matter NOW? Why do we put this word 'now' at the end of it?

Nicole Sutton: Two big questions. In terms of the first questions, why does dance matter? I kind of basket it with thinking through why do many of the beautiful things that happen in human life matter. So, why does art matter? Why does music matter? You know, because they're beautiful. They're expressive. They're the things that really make up the fabric of what's amazing about being human and being alive. But if I think of what's special about dance compared to, say, music is that you don't need an instrument to dance. All you need is your body. So, it's something that anyone can do. Dance is something that anyone and everyone can do. Just for fun. Or just to be beautiful, or just to be silly, just to express yourself. It's really a kind of democratic art because it belongs of the people, you know, everybody can do it and everybody can express themselves, assuming you can get over those fears. Everyone can express themselves through dance. It's open to anyone. I think that's why dance matters. It's one of those silly, beautiful things that humans do. And we're lucky enough to do. And it's something that everyone can. Now onto that second question, which I think is even perhaps trickier. Why now? Why now? I mean, maybe it's a little bit like what we were speaking of before. We are... At least in terms of the lifestyles that myself or my friends lead, and I think many people do to... We are all so disembodied, we spend most of our days in our heads or just sitting on a chair or without any physicality. And so in that respect, dance is important now because it represents one of the things that we can do to release, to have that freedom. And whereas in other cultures or other times, we'd have that physical connection with our bodies more regularly, these days, nah... And I think we really do need it even more.

Ira Ferris: I'd also just like to come back to the issue of judgement because it is something I ended up raising in another interview I have done in this series, and I quoted you on a beautiful sentence that you have shared with me a while ago that says: "Replace judgments with curiosity." And I mentioned it in that interview because we were imagining that world where everyone would dance and talking to her, I said, oh, maybe it would be a world without judgment. And it was just such a beautiful idea that came to my mind only then. This idea that we could have a world without judgment because as you say, everyone can dance and the only thing, the only reason why some of us feel that they can't is that fear of judgment and the fact that we are ourselves judgmental people, so we know that others are too. So, we project the idea that somebody else could be judgmental. Potential of erasing that is just such a beautiful prospect.

Nicole Sutton: Yeah. And especially now when we have infrastructure set up in our society that has definitely increased the level of judgment in terms of our technology, in terms of our social media, in terms of I think the attitudes that are portrayed online and in media. We have created a society where, if anything, judgment is on the increase. Where anybody can critique another person at a distance with no real repercussions. And so we have critiques and assessments flying left, right and center. So, imagine a world where people are free of that judgment or feel free of that judgment and are curious and connected and joyful.

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Twitter: @sutton_nic